tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post8951415736266540653..comments2023-05-12T03:00:57.208-07:00Comments on Singing to the Plants: Magic StonesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-62400099591332612102009-04-27T11:08:00.000-07:002009-04-27T11:08:00.000-07:00so inkantos are like mother earth right?I hear the...so inkantos are like mother earth right?I hear there beautiful and the most beautiful voices..beverlynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-12779001125845326612009-02-01T09:07:00.000-08:002009-02-01T09:07:00.000-08:00Fred --On toé, look here and here.Fred --<BR/><BR/>On <EM>toé</EM>, look <A HREF="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/courage-and-power.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> and <A HREF="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/burundanga.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Steve Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176285779096780805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-24139165896419426172009-02-01T08:52:00.000-08:002009-02-01T08:52:00.000-08:00Steve, I love your statement: "Another beautiful t...Steve, I love your statement: "Another beautiful theory mugged by a gang of ugly facts." Thanks for this info. This pretty clearly answers my questions. What is toé? Do you have a posting about it? ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-88223923797714782732009-02-01T03:40:00.000-08:002009-02-01T03:40:00.000-08:00The best general resource for tobacco use in South...The best general resource for tobacco use in South America is Johannes Wilbert, <EM>Tobacco and Shamanism in South America</EM> (New Haven, CT : Yale University Press, 1993). Wilbert gives a number of reasons to believe that all the <EM>Nicotiana</EM> species originated in South America, although he says — now that I have looked at his chapter again — that "man has not been instrumental, voluntarily or involuntarily, in the dispersion of the genus in its wild state." [sigh] Another beautiful theory mugged by a gang of ugly facts. There is, however, no doubt at all that tobacco use was virutally universal among indigenous peoples of North America at the time of first contact with Europeans, as evidenced both by the historical record and archeological finds of pre-contact pipes.<BR/><BR/>Tobacco has a number of <A HREF="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/11/tobacco-as-hallucinogen-mapacho.html" REL="nofollow">psychoactive effects</A>, from mood stabilization at low doses to hallucinations at high doses. Nicotine aids concentration, inhibits MAO, and helps to ameliorate some of the negative effects of scopolamine ingestion and schizophrenia, while apparently having no effect on the hallucinatory effects of either. In the Upper Amazon, it is one of what I call the Big Three hallucinogens — <EM>ayahuasca</EM>, <EM>toé</EM>, and <EM>mapacho</EM>, which offer, resspectively, teaching, <A HREF="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/courage-and-power.html" REL="nofollow">power,</A> and protection, and whose primary effects depend in part on dimethyltryptamine, scopolamine, and nicotine, respectively.<BR/><BR/>I would guess that the sacrality of tobacco is distinctively American. It is interesting to me that tobacco is used as a hallucinogen in South America, but I have found no evidence of this use in North America. Indigenous Amazonian peoples ingest tobacco in every conceivable way — smoked, as a snuff, chewed, licked, as a syrup applied to the gums, and in the form of an enema. In North America, tobacco is ingested only by smoking in relatively low mood-stabilizing amounts.Steve Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176285779096780805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-7914369343406505562009-01-31T16:10:00.000-08:002009-01-31T16:10:00.000-08:00Actually I have another question for you, Steve? W...Actually I have another question for you, Steve? What is the evidence that tobacco was brought to North America because it was sacred? Do you know when it was brought north or what the mechanism was for bringing it north? Are we certain that it was not brought north by the Europeans because it was addictive, but that the North American Indians used it sacramentally (rather than abusively) because that's the way they used plants?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-14502894179307917422009-01-31T16:04:00.000-08:002009-01-31T16:04:00.000-08:00I have not seen anyone feeding tobacco to śālagrām...I have not seen anyone feeding tobacco to śālagrāmas. Thee stones are "fed," certainly, because they are regarded as substitutes for Viṣṇu or Krishna, and are commonly found on altars in places such as Vrindavan. Indeed, in many places śālagrāmas receive the same offerings as the images of these deities. They are often taken by devotees when they leave their homes for a few days or weeks of travel. They are fed the usual offerings, always vegetarian, but also incense (yes, this IS considered a "feeding"). I have seen tobacco used sacramentally among certain Tantrikas in India, and I do not doubt that it has been used on śālagrāmas. But by the time tobacco arrived in India and Asia in general in the 16th century, thanks to the Portuguese, it was not considered a sacramental substance, as it was in South & North America. It has become sacramental in certain quarters, but in my experience it has drawn that quality from the occasional sacramental use of cannabis products. A question I have is the following: In your experience is the sacred nature of tobacco considered a natural property? Is it naturalized due to cultural production and use? Is it regarded as sacred only after passing through the human body, meaning that the interaction between the human body, one's consciousness, and the cut and dried tobacco yeilds a "magical" or sacramental effect? ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-69433790840541583392009-01-31T03:31:00.000-08:002009-01-31T03:31:00.000-08:00Thank you for that interesting comment. Do people ...Thank you for that interesting comment. Do people in India feed the stones? If so, do they feed the stones tobacco? In fact, is tobacco sacred in India at all?<BR/><BR/>Hmm. The genus <EM>Nicotiana</EM> is probably native to the Upper Amazon, and was brought to North America <EM>because</EM> it was a sacred plant. I have read speculation that tobacco may in fact have been the first cultivated crop, for the same reason. I don't see how tobacco could have reached India before, say, the sixteenth century. In Tibet, the Rnying-ma condemn tobacco — the usual Tibetan word is <EM>ta-maq</EM>, clearly a borrowing — based on a <EM>gter-ma</EM> or hidden text attributed to Padmasambhava. For that reason, I remember being surprised to see Chögyam Trungpa smoking when I first met him just about — omigod — forty years ago. <BR/><BR/>So, Fred, I can't think of anyone better equipped to satisfy my curiosity. Is tobacco sacred in India? And do they feed it to their stones?Steve Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176285779096780805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3544799987499995638.post-60269366020699889542009-01-30T20:49:00.000-08:002009-01-30T20:49:00.000-08:00Does anyone know if fossils are used as magic ston...Does anyone know if fossils are used as magic stones? I'm thinking of a stone called shali[a]grama (śāligrāma or śālagrāma) in India, which is a fossil ammonite. Most are very small. All come from the Kali Gandaki river basin in Nepal, a region very difficult of access. They are accorded great sanctity and assigned great magical powers. I have looked closely through a long Sanskrit manuscript on śālagrāmas. Much of what you write here, Steve, could be said for these stones as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com